NXTLVL Twitch Webinar Series Episode 1 – Zoe Soon, IAB

Welcome to our newest Twitch Webinar series, where our NXTLVL Chief of Gaming Clayton McLaughlin interviews leading figures in this new advertising ecosystem.

For our inaugural episode, we are honoured to welcome Zoe Soon, VP Experience Center at the IAB, to chat about the future of gaming.

If you don’t know who the IAB is, they represent the full advertising ecosystem (publisher, advertiser, agency) and are one of the most influential organizations in the world.

Who is Zoe Soon? In her own words:

Episode Transcript:

00:00:03:02 – 00:01:02:18
Clayton
We’re very excited to launch our first ever – Zoe, thank you very much – our first ever NXTLVL webinar series, obviously hosting and sharing through Twitch. We wanted to focus today. And it’s the reason Zoe is with us on just the sort of introduction to the ecosystem. And so let’s talk about what ads actually are in gaming. Talk about gaming.
Why now is the moment for gaming and the future of it as well. And as I keep alluding to, there’s probably nobody better in the ecosystem than Zoe Soon from IAB to join us as the person that can kind of encapsulate why this all makes a lot of sense and why we’re having a discussion as a whole. So with that said, Zoe, I would love for you to give yourself a little bit of an introduction because I will ruin it.
So if you could give us the background and why you’re joining us and what your thoughts are quickly, and then you have to give us the gamertag.

00:01:02:19 – 00:01:03:02
Zoe
Okay.

00:01:03:14 – 00:01:11:13
Clayton
I know is relatively new for you and your favorite game of all time. So that’s the first hard hitting questions that we’re going to start with today.

00:01:12:15 – 00:01:35:06
Zoe
Okay. Well, first of all, thank you for having me. Very honored to be your first guest. So little bit about me, obviously, I’m Australian. I work for the IAB. And for those of you who don’t know the IAB, the industry body that helped set the standards for digital advertising. I head up the experience center, which is all about helping brands futureproof.

00:01:35:07 – 00:01:45:05
Zoe
So I look after our games and e-sports and metaverse and beyond. So, so that’s a bit about me and your next question was my gamertag.

00:01:45:09 – 00:01:47:15
Clayton
Your gamertag and your favorite game of all time.

00:01:48:04 – 00:01:53:23
Zoe
So my gamertag is, is Gidget. Just because it sounds weird, I kind of.

00:01:54:17 – 00:01:56:00
Clayton
Like that stuff.

00:01:57:07 – 00:02:19:10
Zoe
And favorite game of all time. Extremely controversial. It’s this Nintendo game called The Simpsons a while back. I just have to do a place in my heart because I played it with my cousin over a period of time. And we were. This is the first time that we really collaborated on something. And, you know, workshopping how we get the next level.

00:02:19:20 – 00:02:22:03
Zoe
So I just remember that was just a very fond memory for me.

00:02:22:09 – 00:02:39:20
Clayton
Perfect. It’s sort of like a good song and it always takes you back to a place and time. And so a good game does the same thing essentially. Right? Great. Okay. So I’ll caveat two things as we start this. One, I’m probably going to screw this up and I already did once. So I thought we could do this studio and it didn’t work out.

00:02:39:20 – 00:02:57:11
Clayton
So hopefully everybody seeing this is still on now. And then second part of the reason we want to do this on Twitch is that obviously endemically it makes sense, right? We’re going to be talking about gaming and everything around those. It makes sense to be on the platform that is about gaming and it’s evolution, which I think is interesting.

00:02:57:11 – 00:03:16:17
Clayton
Probably talk a little bit about as we get through this as well. But the second reason that we did it on Twitch is we really want everyone else that’s watching to be engaged in Twitch gives us the chat function and some of those elements that hopefully allow us to have that engagement. So I am going to work on making sure I can actually see the chat as we go along.

00:03:16:17 – 00:03:35:14
Clayton
So I’m sure Zoe will be able to answer some questions as we work through those sort of pieces. But please be engaged, talk with each other, talk with us, and use the platform in the way that we feel that it has. Why? The reason it is as big as it is. So it’s all about the engagement with us.

00:03:35:23 – 00:04:04:04
Clayton
So with that said, we went through the bio, we talked about the IAB a little bit. So recently as of this year, the IAB launched their first ever play, France, led by you. So two questions for you on that. Essentially, why now? Why did it make sense for the play? France and what was sort of the process for you to get the right people from the industry and that sort of to join and be a part of that day as well because it was an awesome day.

00:04:05:04 – 00:04:31:22
Zoe
Thank you. Yeah, it was probably the highlight of my year professionally. So why? Why now? It was it really was time. Like, if you look at the scale of gaming, like 227 million Americans play games regularly and that’s a huge number. That’s like nine times the size of the whole population of Australia. Like, I think people understand this, but if you think about it that way, it’s like scale.

00:04:31:22 – 00:04:57:06
Zoe
That is scale already. 12 hours a week on average playing games. So you’ve got, you know, scale and engagement there. But if you look at digital ad spend that’s been in gaming accounts of less than 6% of total digital entertainment. It is crazy to me like but this delta is a new like we saw it in the shift from print to digital, from desktop to mobile.

00:04:57:08 – 00:05:25:01
Zoe
You see this disproportionate disproportionality between consumer time spend and ad spend, and that’s sort of what we’re seeing with gaming. So it sort of indicates that it’s a space, right, for us to go into and that people will eventually move in. So if we didn’t do it, someone else was going to do it. And to indicate that we were right, just the response that we got was really validating people on both the buy and sell side.

00:05:25:01 – 00:05:43:22
Zoe
So many people we sold out of all the inventory for, you know, stage lots and people presenting their content really quickly. I got called out, which is on LinkedIn and people saying I need to be on stage and so I had no more spots left. Yeah. And from the buy side, we had a packed room that held the whole day.

00:05:43:23 – 00:06:03:05
Zoe
I think it was a 9 to 5 event, which we were nervous about delivering audiences to the, you know, in the afternoon. But it was pretty much standing room almost right until the end. I think the venue had to like move us out of the streets, which is a good sign. Yeah. Yeah. So I think we were really ready for it.

00:06:03:05 – 00:06:31:15
Zoe
And I think that’s the secret sauce of IAB is creating these marketplaces where we’re trying throughout the year to reduce friction in the buying process, to increase understanding and education. And it really culminates in these marketplace events where we bring the buy side and sell side together. So yeah, I think I think the industry here is ready and I think we sort of just put together a good mix of people.

00:06:31:21 – 00:06:53:05
Clayton
Yeah, I have a couple of follow ups that we’ll get into on that. I think it was a great introduction, right, because the disproportionate time spent to ad spends is wild to me, right? And it continues to get even more wild to me as I feel like gaming is becoming so mainstream that it’s it’s strange to me that it’s still that thing.

00:06:53:06 – 00:07:08:08
Clayton
So talk a little bit about that too. And I think also that what the IAB is doing for the support of gaming. So we’ll get into those pieces as well. So definitely questions that I want to ask you, but I one of the highlights of the day for me was your keynote.

00:07:09:00 – 00:07:09:18
Zoe
So deep.

00:07:09:20 – 00:07:27:10
Clayton
In that. Yeah. And not just because you call me out for being a super clever, very long story. It’s actually not that long. The story. We’re going to share it here. So I would love for you to give us a little bit of the recap, like if there’s a two minute recap of your 30 minute keynote, because I do think it sets up the conversation so well in a certain set up that entire day.

00:07:27:17 – 00:07:30:17
Clayton
Very, very well as well. So yeah, it’s just a two minute rundown on that.

00:07:31:00 – 00:08:03:09
Zoe
Yeah. So it is a pretty simple way to break down what like, you know, really I kind of wanted to paint an idea of how big this marketplace is. So we talked about, you know, the 227 million people playing games, 12 hours a week, delta in the ad stands. So that sort of set up the market opportunity. And then I wanted to address the buyers in the room who were probably thinking, well, if it’s such a great entertainment medium, why haven’t we gotten into gaming yet and why should we?

00:08:03:18 – 00:08:23:03
Zoe
So that was really the the crux of my keynote, just sort of answering that question that I and I would have as a buyer sitting in the audience. So taking those eight in turn, why has that been lagged? It really comes down to three big reasons that there are more. But 3 to 3 that I covered in the keynote were, you know, misconceptions about the audience.

00:08:23:14 – 00:08:26:04
Zoe
And I almost want that role. I said this because we hear this all the.

00:08:26:04 – 00:08:26:07
Clayton
Time.

00:08:26:19 – 00:08:50:20
Zoe
And everyone in the industry is so tired of ending gaming. Right. And everyone’s a gamer. We hear this all the time, but it’s still there. The misconceptions about, you know, 20 year olds in hoodies playing games in a basement, you know, everyone can say this, but I know that. So that’s definitely been one of the factors holding games back.

00:08:51:15 – 00:09:19:22
Zoe
Brand safety concerns. So just blanket, you know, blocking anything with like action games and actually got a big category in gaming and then, you know, lack of agreed upon ad models and, you know, measurement. So it’s sort of been a vicious cycle that’s self-perpetuating. We sort of not got into it. So we haven’t invested in providing clarity around models and measurement, which makes it harder to get into.

00:09:19:23 – 00:09:41:21
Zoe
So that’s sort of why it’s lagged, but why that’s changing. So the misconceptions about gamers is, is definitely shifting. It’s moving from being considered needs to being mainstream. Okay. So Ariana Grande de Marshmello, Travis Scott all doing concerts in in the metaverse know big games.

00:09:42:03 – 00:09:44:01
Clayton
Snoop’s part of Faze Clan right yeah.

00:09:44:11 – 00:10:11:04
Zoe
Yeah. And you know Gucci think Duty’s collaboration with North Face was an 90 campaign big luxury brands definitely getting into gaming. So not only Gen Z is a gaming generation and I think it’s we’re just unable to ignore that fact. Right. 80% of Gen Z. Depending on what research you read, that number gets higher. And I never say never seen that much lower.

00:10:11:04 – 00:10:22:20
Zoe
You have seen I’ve seen 90. I’ve seen 80. But it’s it’s it’s above 80 again. So if you think about how old Gen Z is now, they’re about to move into the household decision maker age.

00:10:23:01 – 00:10:23:08
Clayton
Yeah.

00:10:24:02 – 00:10:26:00
Zoe
Get on board now or miss that.

00:10:26:13 – 00:10:53:19
Clayton
Yeah. Yeah. Well I saw somebody on LinkedIn yesterday mentioned like why do we keep talking about Gen Z kind of where I’m over teenagers and like that you’re perceptive. They’re not just teenagers any longer. You’re absolutely right. Like they are the future of the buying power, not just here but globally, especially the gaming. Now, I think Newzoo said 3.2 billion gamers globally this year and I got those kind of scale numbers or my favorite slideshow.

00:10:54:18 – 00:11:03:18
Zoe
And I think it is influential now. Like I sort of seen a standard how much they can influence their parents to buy. So definitely more effective than my generation.

00:11:04:12 – 00:11:05:02
Clayton
Yeah. Yeah.

00:11:05:10 – 00:11:06:00
Zoe
Your parents.

00:11:06:01 – 00:11:06:15
Clayton
Hey, man.

00:11:07:05 – 00:11:35:22
Zoe
Can you imagine when they are actually, you know, not old enough to be in those decision making positions? So when instead the audience is shifting and the next generation is a gaming generation for this generation, gaming is they new social like social. It came about in our generation. Now it’s is evolving in their generation. So I think 80% of this generation hangs out and things just to hang out with friends.

00:11:35:22 – 00:12:04:15
Zoe
They don’t actually play the main game. They’re there as especially to obviously the metaverse has been a big buzzword in the city, in the in the industry and that’s sort of given gaming and an image makeover. I think it’s like cool again. Yeah. And then a bit more industry specific things that are coming into play. We’re seeing big ad titans investing in gaming.

00:12:04:17 – 00:12:30:02
Zoe
So Microsoft bought Activision Blizzard and Netflix launched Netflix gaming, SNAP on Snap games. Google launched Google Stadia. I think NBC did a partnership with Enzo. There’s you know, there’s nothing to say that they’re going to put ads gaming. But given that these are adult businesses, it’s hard to believe that they won’t put some ad thinking into these platforms.

00:12:31:11 – 00:12:57:15
Zoe
We’re seeing cloud computing accelerate, so we’re more likely to see games on more screens everywhere. And then finally, you know, the measurement blackout that’s happening with the deprecation of third party cookies, I just think that the industry is ready to change how they’re thinking about doing this, sort of being forced to change how they’re doing things. So all of these are sort of, you know, creating the perfect storm to create an opening for gaming.

00:12:58:00 – 00:13:21:18
Clayton
Yeah, great. And so you mentioned there’s a storm that’s creating change in the Internet. We have to. Yeah. What is the IAB doing and you and your experience there in the part that you’re leading, what is that group focusing on? What are the elements that are going to come to market so that brands can feel more comfortable in the space, so that they can understand this using the same sort of language that they’re used to seeing from planning, etc..

00:13:22:20 – 00:13:43:08
Clayton
So I’d love to talk a little bit more about what ABS is looking to do that helps the industry move forward and helps again, brands that may be a little bit iffy or even, you know, ad agency side buyers as well just helps clear up some of the misnomers, helps and creates a simpler ecosystem for both you know, buy side as well as the sell side.

00:13:44:07 – 00:14:09:17
Zoe
Yeah. So I think, you know, one way of addressing gaming because I think people think that standards are something that follows, you know, what, what sort lottery scale and we’re trying to get ahead of it this time and help us close that gap to where consumers are. So in 2020, we launched the games and e-sports. AUDIENCE You’re your own.

00:14:10:18 – 00:14:32:20
Zoe
And it’s a group of industry leaders, about 16 to 20 companies that help, you know, be the eyes and ears of like, what do we actually need to move this forward to really important advisory group that meets on a quarterly basis to set the roadmap and the agenda for how we can reduce friction in the marketplace and increase understanding for the buy side and do all that good stuff.

00:14:34:17 – 00:15:00:24
Zoe
We launched the games and E-sports and Framework, which is sort of like a taxonomy, but we don’t use that word because it gets confused with all the work that we’re doing around the cookies. So it’s really like a glossary of terms of what are we going to, how are we going to define all these different terms? And that was an important first step just to sort of lay the groundwork for the consistent plumbing when we do build systems, because ideally the goal is, you know, scale and programmatic.

00:15:00:24 – 00:15:10:09
Zoe
So like let’s, let’s, let’s start with the common language. So we launched that in 2020. We want to play fronts this year.

00:15:10:23 – 00:15:15:04
Clayton
This year very successfully in April. Yeah.

00:15:15:04 – 00:15:23:24
Zoe
So we did that. We are in the process of updating the 2009 in-game measurement, intrinsic in-game measurement guidelines. And you believe.

00:15:23:24 – 00:15:27:17
Clayton
That as this going to set, can we reiterate those 2009. Yes.

00:15:27:24 – 00:15:28:23
Zoe
So long.

00:15:29:13 – 00:15:30:12
Clayton
Book about it’s time.

00:15:31:22 – 00:15:56:15
Zoe
Lines were written before viability was a thing. Yeah it’s like that was so outdated that the MSI refused to accredit companies on them because it was just so outdated and really what the update is, is sort of bringing gaming back up to par with the rest of digital media. So we separate how we define an impression. Like was an ad delivered to do ability and before those were conflated.

00:15:56:15 – 00:16:03:12
Zoe
So it’s I think it required 10 seconds the ability to count as a delivered ad which you don’t see that in other media.

00:16:03:12 – 00:16:05:23
Clayton
Yeah. Even close to that in other media.

00:16:06:21 – 00:16:35:09
Zoe
So we put together a Cross-Industry task taskforce in partnership with the MSI and with IAB Tech Lab two to update those. And we anticipate launching those this summer. So watch this space that’s relaunching those and then work that we’re currently doing, which I think you alluded to, was that the translating audiences. So we’re working at the board to help, basically help the buy side know how to find the audiences in gaming.

00:16:35:14 – 00:17:02:02
Zoe
They know how to find it in TV. They plug in certain things into the planning systems. They can find them. But the currency of gaming is sort of different. And the analogy, and I can’t take credit for this analogies as Kerry tells analogy, but I think it’s a she said when we were shifting from, you know, linear TV to streaming video or to digital video, people didn’t really know there was like daypart.

00:17:02:02 – 00:17:25:08
Zoe
It wasn’t a thing channel. It’s like a different thing. So we had to say, okay, this is how this is the currency of digital video. And we made that transition. We’re now at another inflection point where we have to shift from digital to a more immersive media. How do you how do you measure that interaction? And, you know, there are signs that we’re getting there.

00:17:25:08 – 00:17:41:23
Zoe
Like we’re looking at attention metrics and different things are coming about in the industry. But how do we how do we translate this medium supplanted planners who don’t know what to plug in to find that. So it’s the other work that we’re doing fantastic.

00:17:41:23 – 00:18:07:08
Clayton
I like, as you alluded to, I’m lucky enough to be involved in some of that. But I think it’s the discussions are so important. Not only are they timely, but it continues to be on a day to day basis. When we have these discussions with brands, the story that we tell is very much the same. So first, there’s this ongoing justification of why gaming, and then there’s the next step of the discussion of like, well, here is how we can talk about it in the same way that we talk about everything else that you’re so familiar with.

00:18:08:00 – 00:18:29:01
Clayton
Right. And not everybody’s as comfortable or familiar, and we’re working through some of those elements. But and I think of going back to the play, friends have kind of connected that you started the day we’re talking about why gaming, why it made sense and everybody in that room was nodding like, oh yeah, you know, it was interesting. And it was I don’t know what the number was.

00:18:29:01 – 00:18:30:17
Clayton
It had to be for a lot of people.

00:18:31:18 – 00:18:31:24
Zoe
To.

00:18:32:10 – 00:18:53:19
Clayton
Say yes. So it was great to see. And that reflected that ongoing acceptance. And then it was interesting because every single presenter that got up continued to go through that justification. Like you could see, the entire industry is so used to having to justify and using that same point where it was just hammered over and over and over and over again.

00:18:53:22 – 00:19:13:08
Clayton
I mean, the rest of the conversations and what was presented was a fantastic work and a huge opportunity. But it was interesting. You know, I feel like what we’re doing with the IAB and what you guys are leading is so important because you can see the entire industry and the ones that are living and breathing every single day that are still.

00:19:13:20 – 00:19:14:20
Zoe
Dealing with it.

00:19:15:03 – 00:19:19:09
Clayton
All day, every day. And it’s almost like they can’t get rid of the habit of doing that.

00:19:19:09 – 00:19:20:07
Zoe
That was, in fact, one of.

00:19:20:07 – 00:19:20:16
Clayton
The things.

00:19:20:21 – 00:19:32:19
Zoe
One of the constructive pieces of feedback that and it was it wasn’t even negative. It was just like, this is great. I would love to see us evolve next year beyond the the baseline like permission here like you know.

00:19:33:04 – 00:19:33:15
Clayton
Yeah yeah.

00:19:34:00 – 00:19:39:18
Zoe
Like he’s this is why I have permission to talk to you. It’s sort of like when you said stop justifying.

00:19:40:04 – 00:20:06:02
Clayton
Yeah, well, it’s year one, so it’s like I think it did kind of need some justification right in everybody’s minds. And, and I think just the attendance and engagement alone is moot, hopefully well beyond that I think for the next session. So excited to see what comes into play moving forward. So okay, so IAB is leading the industry loads of great work being done, a lot of things to work on as we continue to move forward.

00:20:06:02 – 00:20:30:14
Clayton
So let’s shift a little bit to just sort of your thoughts as somebody that again, lives and breathes this industry. And what do you think are most exciting pieces that are on the forefront, maybe six months, 12 months, 18 months? And then the realistic nature of, you know, how close are some of these things? Well, we’ll talk a little bit more about the metaverse and and the set pieces, but I think this sort of starts to set up a piece of that.

00:20:30:14 – 00:20:42:09
Clayton
So I love to see just what you are sort of excited to set about maybe starting to six months from now and stuff that’s very realistic right now. And then we can shift more towards the longer term exciting work as well.

00:20:43:11 – 00:21:13:05
Zoe
Yeah, so good question. To me, that’s the thing that’s the most the closest on the horizon is this convergence between social content and commerce and, you know, gaming sort of encapsulates all of those opportunities. Like you’re seeing virtual shops, you’re seeing gaming influencers in the space. It is a mishmash of which is why I think gaming is is such a great answer to the metaverse, because it is this other experience.

00:21:13:05 – 00:21:39:17
Zoe
It’s not a 2D thing. You’re sort of interacting in the space. So I think, you know, that that’s on the horizon, that the confluence of those those factors and the rise of gaming influences. Then I think on the there now and 6 to 12 is we’re definitely seeing the rise of the the intrinsic in game format like you’re seeing some newcomers on the stays up to the standards.

00:21:40:00 – 00:22:08:16
Zoe
And I’ve had some conversations with publishers which has been really interesting when it coming around and and they’re really excited about a new, maybe more premium ad format and looking for ways to supplement as you know, tech gets better and consumers expect this high fidelity graphics and these you know gaming is just yeah it’s it’s such a expensive production.

00:22:09:19 – 00:22:31:17
Zoe
So I think that will always sit in ways of like, you know, subsidizing that in ways that don’t take people out of the game, which is, I think this new format is sort of doing. And then the 18 month and and beyond and we’ll probably get into this as well is the I think the branded digital goods piece.

00:22:31:17 – 00:23:02:02
Zoe
So yeah, and it’s it’s sort of related to the to the endgame, but a yeah. Same thing is as avatars are on the rise and people get more invested in these, you know, digital worlds, identity really comes into play. So we’re seeing people want to have the Gucci bag and roadblock. So yeah, I mean, I’m sure you saw that article where in Gucci Garden that was selling the get your bag to $6 like Robux equivalent $6.

00:23:02:06 – 00:23:22:10
Zoe
Yeah. Then a few weeks later, the resell of that digital gold went for more than the actual Gucci back, like dollars or something like that. So I think we were, we haven’t, we haven’t even gotten to that point where, where that’s fully happened. But I think it will it’s realistic.

00:23:22:10 – 00:23:56:21
Clayton
Yeah, for sure. So let me backtrack a little bit on something that you were kind of alluding to in these pieces, too, is the experience of the gamer, right? Which in our perspective is the single most important thing that you need to consider. Whether you’re a publisher, you’re a game developer, you’re an advertiser. Whatever it is, is it’s such a private and engaged platform where anything that ruins that engagement probably has way more negative effect than not ruining that will have positive impact where you can.

00:23:56:21 – 00:24:19:11
Clayton
It’s really hard to to do it really, really well, but I think it’s really easy to do it not so well. Right. And, you know, I think of the experiences that just drive me nuts. It’s like watching the same video six times over so that you can finally get to that upper level of whatever it is. And, you know, I’m getting a new suit or a new weapon in a first person shooter, whatever it might be.

00:24:20:19 – 00:24:51:22
Clayton
So I guess it’s sort of what have you heard from advertisers and what is the IAB? If there’s a stance or not, this is fine. But just as we think about that gaming experience, I guess my real question is, have we have we fuck this up completely yet? Are we beyond reproach on this? Because I was on a panel years ago and it was actually I was an agency rep talking to game developers and I use the analogy of like we screwed up display years ago with pop ups and obnoxious, right?

00:24:52:03 – 00:25:11:05
Clayton
And now banner blindness is a thing not just because of, you know, maybe poor placement, the ads or whatever. Maybe it’s because people get so tired of the really terrible formats that did exist for a long time. Are we beyond that or have we gotten to that point yet? Are we beyond that point in gaming, or can we still do this correctly?

00:25:11:20 – 00:25:17:04
Clayton
And things like Intrinsic and Game and some of these better integrations with other pieces, is that the future?

00:25:18:18 – 00:25:22:03
Zoe
Yes, isn’t a great question and.

00:25:22:21 – 00:25:32:13
Clayton
It was a very leading question. 2 seconds. But getting my perspective on now. But I just so very simply like have we screwed it up yet or can we still we still do this the right way?

00:25:33:08 – 00:26:06:12
Zoe
So we have definitely there’s definitely bad ad experiences out there in gaming like it, you know, the the Xbox move moving Xbox or like out of ads and things that play with the sound on or you know you have to just click through five times to dismiss the interstitial on that that’s engagement for you for your app. Okay so the definitely they definitely exist and I think they’re probably part of the reason why there’s publisher and consumer resistance for will get ads and games that is out there.

00:26:06:21 – 00:26:29:04
Zoe
I don’t think we’ve screwed it up so I don’t think it means that we can’t move beyond that. I think one of the the reasons I love what I do in the area that I work in is that anything emerging people are working, are really passionate about it because otherwise I just feel so. I mean, you can tell from the way you ask that question of other people.

00:26:30:16 – 00:26:53:07
Zoe
They lose sleep at night like I love gaming, I’ll be going to sports. So I think I think the thing that does unite us is a player first mentality. So it’s like we really trying to find the synergy here. Like how can we do a win win? And you know, there is research out there that says ads can make the experience that assets increases like you’re going around a racetrack and that’s what you see in real life.

00:26:55:03 – 00:27:23:12
Zoe
People do like rewarded odds when done well because they they can you know that’s value exchange it’s actually a real value exchange that consumers understand. So there is a way to sort of protect that play offense, philosophy and actually one of the projects that we’re talking about for 2023, if the board prioritizes that is some creative creative standards are gaming’s like how do you you can’t just slap a mobile ad on a game.

00:27:23:12 – 00:27:45:01
Zoe
You can have a click button. The text has to be big. All of those creative best practices, but also like user experience, could be the consistent spot. Let’s play sound off, you know, make it easy to know how to just dismiss out of the box all there’s definitely things that we can do to to redress some of the some of the the maybe the clumsy entrance we’ve made.

00:27:45:16 – 00:27:46:22
Zoe
As I heard.

00:27:46:24 – 00:27:49:08
Clayton
It’s a much more elegant way to say it. And I mean, it’s perfect.

00:27:51:02 – 00:27:55:23
Zoe
And so I think what was really your question? Yeah. How are we going to.

00:27:57:01 – 00:28:00:19
Clayton
Yeah, we we have we just completely screwed it up or is there still hope.

00:28:01:08 – 00:28:25:15
Zoe
Yeah. And I think there is still hope. I think as new experience and like gaming is also evolving, right? We’re seeing different types of games in the way that people engage in them changing. So I think there’s always new, new experiences that are evolving that we can learn how to move authentically and we’re seeing that in the metaverse experiences, right?

00:28:25:15 – 00:28:50:07
Zoe
It needs to be an authentic representation, not just slot to brand in. And I think we’re seeing that philosophy impact measurement event, right? Like people want an attention metric it can’t it’s not it’s not enough to just say was the ad delivered and wasn’t eyeball in front of that for 3 seconds or whatever the second it did they interact with it.

00:28:50:07 – 00:29:01:07
Zoe
Was there someone active on the other side of that ad? So I think I think if anything, gaming is sort of positively impacting measurement as well.

00:29:01:14 – 00:29:23:19
Clayton
Sure. Okay. You said the magic word, metaverse. So will transition to that sort of discussion. So you mentioned it, too. Is the future of gaming what that looks like? I mean, I guess the first question around metaverse is do we feel like what is called the metaverse right now is actually the metaverse? I have a feeling I know where we sit on that.

00:29:24:06 – 00:29:43:11
Clayton
And then the idea is, okay, well, what is the actual promise that that comes with the metaverse? Well, the web web3 and sort of the elements of those. And in your mind, like, what’s the key point or multiple points that we need to get to for any of these worlds that we exist in right now to actually be the metaverse right.

00:29:43:11 – 00:30:02:21
Clayton
I think our my perspective is the interoperability is what is still missing between all of these sort of pieces. So what do you think it sets and where do we need to go to to get there? Maybe it’s not in the next six months. Maybe it is a two year or even a five year kind of thing. But how do we get there and who gets us there?

00:30:04:13 – 00:30:23:24
Zoe
So, yeah, the the true definition of the metaverse is not fully interoperable yet, you know, virtual parallel world. I personally am not sure that we’ll ever get there, is it? Can you imagine? Like animal crossing, Minecraft, Fortnite all actually connecting, working together.

00:30:24:00 – 00:30:24:06
Clayton
Yeah.

00:30:24:18 – 00:31:01:06
Zoe
So and like the graphics are different like with my avatar design or my avatar go. So less fidelity between would it change between? There’s so many things to consider. But if we define metaverse as just another digital reality like another, another space, then I think that is definitely closer. So I tend to go with that definition and I think we have lots of different metaverse experiences and gaming is sort of been the entryway into those.

00:31:01:09 – 00:31:09:17
Zoe
Yeah, yes. So sorry. Your question was how far do I think we are? And yeah.

00:31:09:18 – 00:31:35:20
Clayton
I mean, to to what we think. So if we we ever get to the interoperable metaverse where you’re questioning whether or not we do and I tend to agree with you, how close are we? Who gets us there chatting? The other pieces. And it is the technology, the NFT craze, right? Crypto blockchain, these things that are supposed to be web3 and and driving that are those truly the pieces that get us there?

00:31:36:00 – 00:32:03:11
Clayton
Are they just one piece of a very large cog and there’s probably hundreds of other technologies that are going to be created with them that we just don’t have a concept up yet. Or does that mean we are ten years from this, do you think five years from those are we one year from it? Is it already exists, you know, if you throw on your metal goggles and so I don’t have yet to talk to you anyway.

00:32:03:19 – 00:32:28:12
Zoe
So I mean, I think if if you look at the, the term metaverse in a really abstract, since you can go and have that experience now, I think it’s important to distinguish like I know you know, the difference, but as we’re talking here, for those watching to distinguish metaverse from Web3, so metaverse is like a virtual world essentially.

00:32:28:12 – 00:33:00:12
Zoe
And then with threes, you know, it’s crypto, it’s empties, it’s system, they definitely overlap. And you know, metaverse will require ownership and aspects of that. But that’s the distinction there. And if you look at Niantic’s definition, it’s it’s a very logical one is you wouldn’t be surprised. So I think we’re we’re out where we’re at right now is the blending of the physical in the digital world and just the enhancement of the physical world with digital.

00:33:01:07 – 00:33:25:06
Zoe
Because if you think about the arc of our technology journey, we started with those bulky pieces where we had to go to the can see the computer. To interact with digital is very separate from our lives. And through the years that blending has been happening, right? We had the mobile phone that came with us. Soon we’ll have those glasses and all of these headsets will get more advanced.

00:33:25:06 – 00:33:38:09
Zoe
So I think I think will take us there. As corny as it is, technology that will let us like overlay the digital world more seamlessly into our everyday lives and physical world.

00:33:38:09 – 00:34:02:06
Clayton
So I think, yeah, if we want to go back to the play fronts, I think one of the favorite things so there was a ring and it wasn’t there outside of the actual room. There was loads of set ups that were walking through some of the technologies that existed and one of them was, you know, an audio or an air headset and playing the zombie game completely and.

00:34:02:20 – 00:34:03:15
Zoe
Not walking dead.

00:34:03:23 – 00:34:22:02
Clayton
No, no, no, no. It doesn’t matter anyway. But the actual experience was the first time I’d played that sort of interactive space. Most of what I had done in AR and VR was sort of the sports, you know, those sort of things. But this was, you know, you have to be able to take the gun out and actually load it.

00:34:22:02 – 00:34:41:16
Clayton
You got to get to aim. And then it was it felt much more interactive than most of the other games that I had played at that point, or the experiences that I had used, which I thought was, you know, but by the time you took it off, you did feel like a lot more use. You know, some of that sort of stuff I think still needs to be to work through.

00:34:41:16 – 00:35:08:16
Clayton
But it’s I think it’s super exciting and I think VR a combination of such a distinction between the two got it. Super exciting. The opportunities exist there but okay so we’re getting to getting to the end. So I want to give you a little bit of time because I know you have this theory about identities and inside of the metaverse, and I’m trying to read through my notes and then spam and completely mess it up.

00:35:08:16 – 00:35:29:22
Clayton
So I’ll let you take it from there. But this idea of first time since the Industrial Revolution that we have think through and express our identities and unique new ways due to this work. Expand on that a little bit. So what that meant because it’s way smarter than anything I could come up with some certainly eager to learn from you on this.

00:35:31:14 – 00:35:55:16
Zoe
Of what my theory is. So my background is psychology. I studied psychologists and then went into UX design and eventually ended up in advertising. But I just remember one of my favorite classes was a sociology class and we were talking about stereotypes and brands and everything like that. And my professor was saying, Well, if you think about it, brands aren’t superficial.

00:35:55:16 – 00:36:18:15
Zoe
They sort of evolved to fill a need that the Industrial Revolution caused. So when we went from small villages and we had the Industrial Revolution, when we moved to big cities, we all became a bit more anonymous, right? So it was impossible to know everyone in your village and who you were. So we had to find a way to communicate our identity in fleeting moments.

00:36:19:13 – 00:37:01:16
Zoe
So I don’t have time to tell you, hey, I wouldn’t advertise in I’m a you know, I like playing soccer, right? I don’t have time to do that. So I buy Nike because I identify with their brand values and you can recognize the source and you get it. Okay, she’s a Nike person or I wear piercings. There’s different ways that we use fashion trends to say in a brief moment, this is who I am, and now we’re sort of at the first inflection point since that big social change where we’re in a new environment, where we don’t have our physical bodies, we don’t have, you know, clothes, or that the physical goods that communicate identity

00:37:03:14 – 00:37:23:21
Zoe
and we have avatars and we have so much control over that, it’s almost overwhelming, right? You can be a different person. So the question as opposed to what’s noticing is like will brands have to have to consumer profiles like a a metaverse profile to me Zoe.

00:37:24:09 – 00:37:25:13
Clayton
Is very interesting. Yeah.

00:37:26:02 – 00:37:55:04
Zoe
And there are a lot of social questions that come into play and brand safety things that as an industry body, I think about like will Mira have to put in some guidelines to sort of lead children who may be like think about minority children. You I mean, I grew up as an Asian kid in Australia in the eighties and you know, your natural instinct is to assimilate because you want to be the same, you want to be this.

00:37:55:05 – 00:38:16:14
Zoe
Now, it’s cool to be a minority these days, but that’s still a thing, right? Just to assimilate to that to them the norm. So what if what if someone wants to be a white character and they’re actually a black child, should there be some education around that or the or the reverse? At what point does it become cultural appropriation if someone wants to take on it?

00:38:16:22 – 00:38:17:08
Clayton
Sure.

00:38:17:15 – 00:38:29:12
Zoe
It’s Avatar. Those are really important questions. And yeah, I can see people spending a lot on these digital brands to dig out their other child.

00:38:29:13 – 00:38:58:14
Clayton
So yeah, well, I mean, think of the douchey example I used earlier, right? It’s well, it’s funny because it’s like I would say when I was growing up, like juju was never an option. Right. But at $6 in a virtual world. Right, that’s an option. Right. I mean, I think that and it’s a it’s an interesting way for brands to introduce themselves to different generations and different targets and audiences that they might not have been able to before.

00:38:58:15 – 00:39:17:04
Clayton
So I think there’s also just you’re absolutely right that they have to think about potentially an avatar versus a real world. But at the center of it, it’s not about any of those pieces, just about what do they care about and who are they? Yeah, right. And can I reach them? And how do I reach them as a brand?

00:39:17:15 – 00:39:42:22
Clayton
There’s a luxury brand or travel brand or anything in between. You know, what is what is the core of that individual and potentially what is your avatar telling them about that? Right. And in a world where, you know, we’re not going to have cookies that are following them around, understanding their activity, and we can start to assimilate people into these tiny little groups and, you know, I always laugh at my mom that like, everybody thinks they’re that individual.

00:39:42:22 – 00:40:01:08
Clayton
But now that things called cohorts, cohorts just, you know, like you’re one of like 6 million in this country, like, you know, so it’s even when we, you know, we’re, I think just naturally human. We do a lot of the same sort of things over and over again. And we create our habits because we have to and marketers should be able to address those.

00:40:01:08 – 00:40:27:09
Clayton
So it’s a super interesting concept and I think what happens inside the gaming system in the metaverse world, whatever iteration that becomes right, because I think there’s a lot of argument right now that we should just stop using the term metaverse is it really doesn’t exist and we’re a long way away from it. But some of these technologies to get us there and you know, how do we how do we use stewards of brands or as brands themselves understand those elements?

00:40:27:09 – 00:40:29:15
Clayton
And obviously there’s a lot to come right.

00:40:30:06 – 00:40:46:04
Zoe
And I think it’s like the instant we didn’t know what we were going to use it for, at the start, we knew it would be not all of us, but some of us knew that it was going to be important. I don’t think any of us could have predicted how much it would change. Game. So to me this is sort of it we we can tell what is potential there.

00:40:46:23 – 00:40:52:14
Zoe
But one thing that is different is the speed at which everything is moving like it’s just so much faster now, right?

00:40:52:14 – 00:41:11:08
Clayton
Yeah. Yeah. Well, that’s it. I see. I left, I started my career in search and it felt like every two years there was something new, you know? And then it was every year there was something new. And now like the beta list you get from the likes of Google is there’s 42 things on the edge that they’re testing at any one time.

00:41:11:08 – 00:41:32:16
Clayton
It could come out tomorrow and back to back to back to back, you know, successive days and know I think gaming certainly in the same sort of iterative nature and that’s the exciting part about it as well. So yeah. Okay. Any last parting thoughts as we leave? Anything else that you think is a crucial piece that maybe we didn’t talk about or just a parting?

00:41:32:16 – 00:41:39:06
Clayton
Sort of. If there’s one thing that you should remember from us about gaming in the future, what is that?

00:41:40:00 – 00:42:10:11
Zoe
Yeah, well, first of all, I really enjoyed chatting with you as the time flew, and it’s really encouraging to see gaming dedicated divisions. So congrats on next level and thank you this podcast here. Yeah, I think the thing to think is don’t I don’t want the buy side to be so scared of gaming and don’t want metaphysical people talk like that is definitely an edge thing and gaming is a great way to learn about how to stay ahead of what’s going to happen there.

00:42:10:23 – 00:42:23:06
Zoe
The game is as an at scale opportunity now and there’s so many things you can do now and test now and at the end it’s just a different to what you’re normally doing, but it doesn’t have to be scary.

00:42:23:06 – 00:42:26:05
Clayton
So yeah, come find a partner. And that’s what they’re doing now.

00:42:26:13 – 00:42:29:03
Zoe
Yes, exactly. They can do it.

00:42:29:03 – 00:42:44:13
Clayton
Yes. Yeah. Well, that’s that’s where we’re at, too. So wonderful. Zoe, thank you so much for the time. I know we’ll continue to have conversations. This thing becomes more frequently. We can have you back on and have you talk with a few other people as well.

00:42:44:13 – 00:42:48:15
Zoe
So thank you. I’d love that and I’m looking forward to tuning in to your next episode.

00:42:48:15 – 00:43:10:11
Clayton
Absolutely. Two weeks, that’s the plan. So we’ll see how it comes together. Maybe by then I’ll figure out how to use that studio to do this the right way as well. Thank you so much. Again, Zoe and anybody that joined. Thank you so much. We are going to have those recordings put on our YouTube channel, so we’ll share those out for anybody who wants to see additional pieces and you’ll continue to get more of the content as you put these things out.

00:43:10:11 – 00:43:19:11
Clayton
So one more time. Thank you, Zoe and IAB for joining us and having the discussion today. And with that, we’ll wrap it up. So everybody, have a great weekend and go play your favorite game.